Argument Thread

[Zup]

Eh our fights never really get to that

But you never know...

[Rammerrush]

And just in case it does I decided to put this topic in the Adult section haha

[Redhollowlives999]

LOL so it begins

alright, fine, I'll take the bait.

One last time on this debate.

Of course you did. You think you're above me.

Whatever

No I don't... you just always blurt out what i already know, so i dismiss it... Because you're just repeating what I had already processed.

You didn't annihilate a single one, actually, you simply dismissed them and said Aizen was equal in every aspect and better in some without actually giving examples for proof and backup. You just ignored everything I said.

I didn't ignore what you said; I just got it the first time.. and it could also be that you didn't listen to a word I said the first time I said it...
All I heard was "DUDE! Gogeta will go to new namek, then appear behind aizen, and destroy him"
It got really annoying.

I only repeated things because you ignored them. When you ignore the facts that clearly show why Gogeta wins, there's nothing else I can do other than continue to repeat them so they don't get washed away in your denial.

I didn't ignore anything you said... you just said nonsense I already knew, I told you I knew, and showed how Aizen can and would most likely overcome it, and moved on. You ignored what I said and retaliated with " x10000000000 kamehameha!" and other ignorant things... Then when you argued about aizen, I couldnt take you seriously either because you were pulling it out of wikipedia... Something I've read hundred of times..
You can't say my Bleach knowledge doesnt exceed yours or even that wiki page.. cuz even that has some flaws in it...

Oh really?

yeah. Really

And I already complimented that, as it's impressive. I myself couldn't do that if I tried.

This fact is why this bugs me a little that you keep hogging his victory.

But you see, there's no need to reference episodes when SSJ4 Gogeta was only in the final fight against Omega Shenron. Everything one would need to know is in their short encounter.

Again, I repeat, the the the the you said this yourself!
Gogeta is both Goku and Vegeta... They fall under this equation as well...
alone aizen can beat both of them separate... but it his options are limited with Gogeta...

I referenced many things, a lot of which were off the top of MY head. He seems to know a lot more about the DB universe, and I respect that. I didn't quote anyone other than the Bleach wiki, and that's because we were arguing about an enemy I hadn't even gotten to yet. Those quotes helped my case, yet you simply dismissed them, just like the others.

Your references weren't in-dept... They were very ignorant actually...
like why would i care about his power level in THIS fight? You said its to prove his strength but I told you "I KNOW HIS POWER ALREADY."

I referenced power levels and comparisons showing clearly how and why SSJ4 Gogeta would win (as I have mentioned before. you ignored this too). I gave you incredible feats done by characters not even close to SSJ4 Gogeta's level, yet you still underestimate his power and skill.

WHOA WHOA WHO ON EARTH! TOLD YOU I UNDERESTIMATED GOGETA?! GOGETA!
Like I said... power level wouldnt have mattered in that battle... he cant sense S.P and aizen cant sense Ki.

I have already explained why I repeated my points. You know, you keep repeating the claim that I keep repeating things my statements. I wouldn't have to if you just listened to them and not ignored them like you did.

Like I said... I did listen; I just stopped when you started repeating things.

However, even after studying him and showing that I did know what he could do, you still tossed my arguments and reasoning aside simply because you don't respect my opinions, and you don't have to.

I didn't toss your arguments out... but I can't take them seriously because they are opinions... I need facts... like the ones I gave you..
and you cannot deny the fact that I gave alot of info that you and lone had confirmed.

Why? Because it helps my argument and hurts yours? That's a little biased yourself, don't you think?

No because it doesn't help your argument
Aizen can do that stuff too and I explained how. You bragging about strength when your up against a thinker.. strength cant work with aizen.. I told you that.

Again with the bias.

Nope. You're just mad that power is all gogeta had and I negated it.

But see, this is where your arguments start to lose strength and weight in my eyes. The whole point of the discussion is not "which character do you like more or think is cooler" it was "who would win in a fight." Everything you said you didn't care about was relevant to the skills SSJ4 Gogeta could utilize in a fight.

Who said it was who is my favorite? because SSJ4 Gogeta takes it...

In fact, your argument didn't stay as "SSJ4 Gogeta vs. Aizen." It became "Dragon Ball vs. Bleach" and "Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is incredibly powerful."

That was an example.. If Aizen didn't use it, he'd die..
I also mentioned Aizen's forms
Aizen's other abilities he hasnt shown (but has and excels in it)

But from what you've said, he sounds more knowledgeable about DB than I am. Yet if he chose the same siding as me, how could you say I lost but he won? From the start, I took SSJ4 Gogeta's side, and never left it. I gave you every point needed in order to come to the likely outcomes.

I can respect you two begin on the same side..
heck he was even acting as if he didnt know aizen.. til I gave him my facts.... then he got serious... he agreed with me at first and realized how much of a worthy opponent Aizen is...

What pisses me off is that he convinced me but your taking credit for it by calling it your win.. I get that your in the same team and I get that he proved Gogeta wins... but you didn't really do much in my eyes.. so it pisses me off that you're taking the glory of his honor... just say "I was right."
not "I WON! I'll take my belt now"

Face it, it's because you don't respect my opinions, but you respect his. That's fine. Just admit it.

No I respect it. You just get cocky... Especially since I've given you all your win up until this battle...
I just forgot 3-5 important things... and believe it or not... you dont know enough either sides to get it those things.

Now "best" reasons are opinions. And I went into as much depth as was needed. In fact, I went into much deeper detail of Gogeta's side than you ever did for Aizen.

you had a wiki... I need to explain nothing.
And no they weren't opinions, it IS my opinion that you can'y put me in my spot as accurately as he did...

Yet you can't accept my opinion. Alright then >_>

You have done/said nothing to gain my acceptance. You need to gain it by giving me 100% amazingly accurate and indept (and i mean indept... like what the creator had in mind when creating a character.. or how Gogeta can avoid Aizen's ability by separating his mind back into two... leaving Vegeta under Aizen's control due to His pride leaving an easy opening for Aizen. Goku on the other hand can fight even if hes unconscious.... thus aizen will have trouble... BOOM

I did not want to "preach" to you, in fact. I knew from the start that unless this Aizen guy was omnipotent, SSJ4 Gogeta was going to win. And I was right.

So you took a bias guess?

Nevertheless, I did in fact do my research, thus giving strength to my argument (though not as much as yours or Kazan's, I would imagine).

This made life easier... know your enemy.

The victory I rightfully earned by taking the side that would clearly win the fight and fully fleshing out my arguments and reasons for doing so.

? If I go play 2 on 2 in a bball game with you, and you made all the shots while I stood there and just yelled random things. wouldn't it peeve you if I walked around saying "I won! I won!"

He did win. As did I, because we both chose SSJ4 Gogeta as the winner in the encounter between him and Aizen, and it was how the result would be (not that it would ever happen).

read above analyzes...

You're simply trying to take the victory away from me and bestow it onto your friend.

Cuz he did all the work for you.

I'm not in denial of anything. You are. These are the facts in their rawest state:

1. SSJ4 Gogeta vs Aizen debate begins
2. I take Gogeta's side. You take Aizen's.
3. We both present our cases
4. Your friend takes Gogeta's side, you are convinced he would win
5. You claim I never won in any way, shape or form, and that your friend did.

Yes
Your team won but you did little to change me... You failed to convince me because you knew too little...




BOOM!
now I'm done...




What's next?

[Rammerrush]

New argument coming in

[Redhollowlives999]

Thanks for stating the obvious -____-
Lets see mjz's pitiful points

[Rammerrush]

No problem

[Zup]

Alright here's why a KH x Bleach crossover would be a terrible, terrible idea

1. KH's base concept is a crossover between Square Enix and Disney. Bleach is affiliated with neither.

2. KH is a "childish" IP. It is rated E and E10+ across the board, and has no blood, language (other than some scarce the the the the and whatnot), or obvious suggestive themes (other than some character designs and jokes meant for the more adult crowd). Bleach is a more "mature" IP in that it has blood, violence, language, suggestive themes, and is rated higher for parental discretion on television.

3. A meshing of the two "maturities" of the series would not work either. Look at Mortal Kombat (the more "mature" property) vs. DC Universe (the more "childish" property). The compromise was met with fan rage and critical negativity, as it lost the flavoring of Mortal Kombat in the process, leading to a shell of the IP's identity. The same would happen to a KH x Bleach crossover. Putting KH in a more mature game would lead to it losing it's childlike innocence. Putting Bleach in a more childish game would lead to it losing it's more "mature," adult flavoring.

4. There is practically no fan desire of this crossover. KH fans want KH3. They don't even want a crossover. If they want any kind of crossover, it's putting Marvel in a KH game or Sora in the Dissidia games. I'm not sure what Bleach fans want, but I'm sure they don't want anything to do with the KH fanbase (who are known to be amongst the more rabid fanbases around). There is no fan demand for this title.

5. KH already has a crapload of complaints for its convoluted storyline. Many fans have been lost due to their dislike of side games, straying from the original story, and overall the milking of the series. Adding a Bleach world to KH would be asking for a boycott, hatred by reviewers, and a loss of sales.

6. Bleach has garnered its own share of complaints for it. Many fans have also been lost due to the length of the series and the filler arcs. Many complain Bleach has gotten to ridiculous levels as far as powers and cast size go. Bleach is thought to be past its prime.

7. The point of a crossover is to give fans some of what they want. Fanservice. The idea you gave of "Sora could help fight Hollows" is flawed in that it does not even go with what fans would want were there to be demand for this crossover. Fans would want to see the characters fighting each other, and you said the Keyblade cannot hurt those who don't belong to the darkness or something along those lines. That exempts a lot of Bleach's popular characters (the heroes) so it would diminish crossover capability. If this were not truly the case of the Keyblade's limits, and it COULD hurt the Bleach characters, it would still fail as there would be no sensible reason for Sora to fight Ichigo or most characters in Bleach.

8. Bleach characters are far more powerful than KH characters. Though you can't actually compare them, this seems to be the case. And no one wants to see a weaker character take down a cast of characters higher than the character's level.

9. Both the video game and the anime/manga industry are businesses before they're your friends or artists. Their major purpose and focus is to make money. They do not exist to make what every fan wants, or else an epic KH3 game for PS3 would have been released/announced, and it would be, tbh, trash. It would have too many conflicting ideas and design philosophies to be a good, coherent game, and that should be the last thing fans want from something they like. Square Enix has already given us great things in the form of KH and KHII. Fans should want them to give them the very best KH game they could, and a Bleach crossover is one of the farthest things from it.

10. Marvel is owned by Disney, and would appear in a KH game way before Bleach did. Plus Marvel has better characters and works and adaptations.

[Rammerrush]

LOL ZUPPIFY ME CAP'N

[Redhollowlives999]

1. KH's base concept is a crossover between Square Enix and Disney. Bleach is affiliated with neither.

That can change. Disney didn't even allow mickey to be used in the first game until like last second IIRC.

2. KH is a "childish" IP. It is rated E and E10+ across the board, and has no blood, language (other than some scarce the the the the and whatnot), or obvious suggestive themes (other than some character designs and jokes meant for the more adult crowd). Bleach is a more "mature" IP in that it has blood, violence, language, suggestive themes, and is rated higher for parental discretion on television.

This can also change. Blood can be toggled, we can start around the beginning of bleach, and you forget, this next game is gonna be big. Sora will be older and will finally have a 'relationship' with kairi (according to the creators iirc)

3. A meshing of the two "maturities" of the series would not work either. Look at Mortal Kombat (the more "mature" property) vs. DC Universe (the more "childish" property). The compromise was met with fan rage and critical negativity, as it lost the flavoring of Mortal Kombat in the process, leading to a shell of the IP's identity. The same would happen to a KH x Bleach crossover. Putting KH in a more mature game would lead to it losing it's childlike innocence. Putting Bleach in a more childish game would lead to it losing it's more "mature," adult flavoring.

Again, Kh is going to a whole new level. This isn't 'lets find the king!' or 'Lets find the king again and figure out what happened!'
This is a war (according to yen sid.) All the key blade wielders will be fighting.
This plus soras new age and maturity will equal a whole new level of KH.

4. There is practically no fan desire of this crossover. KH fans want KH3. They don't even want a crossover. If they want any kind of crossover, it's putting Marvel in a KH game or Sora in the Dissidia games. I'm not sure what Bleach fans want, but I'm sure they don't want anything to do with the KH fanbase (who are known to be amongst the more rabid fanbases around). There is no fan demand for this title.

http://www.fanfiction.net/Kingdom_Heart ... 1548/1758/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-anime ... 2573852616
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6730669/1/K ... s_Bleached
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/6665/t1 ... ach-manga/
http://www.mangatherapy.com/post/544091972/bleachkh
All these links talk about KH and bleach and how each of them are very alike. Some of these are even stories of crossovers

5. KH already has a crapload of complaints for its convoluted storyline. Many fans have been lost due to their dislike of side games, straying from the original story, and overall the milking of the series. Adding a Bleach world to KH would be asking for a boycott, hatred by reviewers, and a loss of sales.

How says it'll stray? IIRC in the first game, the mission was to find keyholes in each world.
And in the second, you had to unlock a keyhole in a world to go explore other worlds.
Why can't that be the case for bleach?

6. Bleach has garnered its own share of complaints for it. Many fans have also been lost due to the length of the series and the filler arcs. Many complain Bleach has gotten to ridiculous levels as far as powers and cast size go. Bleach is thought to be past its prime.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't hear people complaining. It should have ended with aizen's defeat, but come'on? he loses his powers! That would have been a crappy ending, in my opinion.

7. The point of a crossover is to give fans some of what they want. Fanservice. The idea you gave of "Sora could help fight Hollows" is flawed in that it does not even go with what fans would want were there to be demand for this crossover. Fans would want to see the characters fighting each other, and you said the Keyblade cannot hurt those who don't belong to the darkness or something along those lines. That exempts a lot of Bleach's popular characters (the heroes) so it would diminish crossover capability. If this were not truly the case of the Keyblade's limits, and it COULD hurt the Bleach characters, it would still fail as there would be no sensible reason for Sora to fight Ichigo or most characters in Bleach.

Why would he fight the good guys? It can hurt hollows and arrancars for sure.
It doesn't have to be hollows, I'm just saying, ending with the battle with byakuya (and of course ichigo leaving sora to go get rukia.) That itself is a good way to end a world chapter.
Sora: Ichigo! I wanna help save rukia!
Ichigo: No, this is my fight. You have your own fight to worry about. Here:
[Sora obtained..... something idk, red ribbon]
So long!
Sora: good bye!
[As soon as ichigo leaves, the ribbon starts to fly and floats around a keyhole or whatever. Sora then unlocks it and moves on.]
Boom.

8. Bleach characters are far more powerful than KH characters. Though you can't actually compare them, this seems to be the case. And no one wants to see a weaker character take down a cast of characters higher than the character's level.

First off, Sephiroth vs sora?
Second off, that why I'm suggesting making the story line before ichigo heads off to the soul society. For the first chapter (in kh2, each world had 2 chapters except TWTNW and disney castle.) and idk, a second battle with byakuya again.

9. Both the video game and the anime/manga industry are businesses before they're your friends or artists. Their major purpose and focus is to make money. They do not exist to make what every fan wants, or else an epic KH3 game for PS3 would have been released/announced, and it would be, tbh, trash. It would have too many conflicting ideas and design philosophies to be a good, coherent game, and that should be the last thing fans want from something they like. Square Enix has already given us great things in the form of KH and KHII. Fans should want them to give them the very best KH game they could, and a Bleach crossover is one of the farthest things from it.

Bleach fans + Kh fans= more fans.
More fans= more money
More money=

10. Marvel is owned by Disney, and would appear in a KH game way before Bleach did. Plus Marvel has better characters and works and adaptations.

Square Enix would need disney's approval. Which I doubt they'd even want.
I'd rather die then see spiderman have a conversation with sora.

[Zup]

That can change. Disney didn't even allow mickey to be used in the first game until like last second IIRC.

Except if it did, that would be suicide. The fan rage would tremendous, as it would betray the entire image of KH.

And not allowing Mickey isn't a big deal. Mickey =/= Disney, even if he is the face.

This can also change. Blood can be toggled, we can start around the beginning of bleach, and you forget, this next game is gonna be big. Sora will be older and will finally have a 'relationship' with kairi (according to the creators iirc)

Blood toggling does not solve the issue in a good way for either side, as it still puts blood in the game and once again leads to more fan rage. And no, I did not forget that the game is gonna be big. But big =/= violent. At all.

And as far as Sora and Kairi having a relationship, yes, they probably will. They will not be having sex or anything tho. Not even flirting suggestively even close to Bleach's level.

Again, Kh is going to a whole new level. This isn't 'lets find the king!' or 'Lets find the king again and figure out what happened!'
This is a war (according to yen sid.) All the key blade wielders will be fighting.
This plus soras new age and maturity will equal a whole new level of KH.

Yes, but there have been big fights before in KH (the series is full of them). Look at taking down Organization XIII or any fight in which they face off against each other. It is not excessively violent, nor is it mature to the point of dark aging to Bleach levels.

And there are characters already older than Sora in KH (or at least supposed to be if you wanna get technical) and they still remain in the realm KH is known for. KH will not turn gritty or more "mature" just because Sora gets older.

http://www.fanfiction.net/Kingdom_Heart ... 1548/1758/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-anime ... 2573852616
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6730669/1/K ... s_Bleached
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/6665/t1 ... ach-manga/
http://www.mangatherapy.com/post/544091972/bleachkh
All these links talk about KH and bleach and how each of them are very alike. Some of these are even stories of crossovers

Except these are met with disgust from the hardcore KH and Bleach fanbases (and I checked) and are not representative of the fanbases of either. These are minorities of both camps that want this.

How says it'll stray? IIRC in the first game, the mission was to find keyholes in each world.
And in the second, you had to unlock a keyhole in a world to go explore other worlds.
Why can't that be the case for bleach?

Because if all worlds were to be Disney, Square Enix, and then Bleach, it would not follow the formula. What's to stop them from shoving other popular worlds in it? What's to stop them from milking the series even more with cheap crossovers just to give more worlds some space and money in the process? It would be the beginning of the end.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't hear people complaining. It should have ended with aizen's defeat, but come'on? he loses his powers! That would have been a crappy ending, in my opinion.

idc about this. nothing to do with the argument.

Why would he fight the good guys? It can hurt hollows and arrancars for sure.
It doesn't have to be hollows, I'm just saying, ending with the battle with byakuya (and of course ichigo leaving sora to go get rukia.) That itself is a good way to end a world chapter.
Sora: Ichigo! I wanna help save rukia!
Ichigo: No, this is my fight. You have your own fight to worry about. Here:
[Sora obtained..... something idk, red ribbon]
So long!
Sora: good bye!
[As soon as ichigo leaves, the ribbon starts to fly and floats around a keyhole or whatever. Sora then unlocks it and moves on.]
Boom.

He would "fight the good guys" because that's the whole point of crossing over a shonen anime and anything else. The fighting. Nobody buys things like Marvel vs. Capcom, Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe, or w/e else there are to see the plot. They wanna see their favorite characters fighting each other outside of fan art.

The reason this doesn't apply to the worlds currently in the KH franchise is because the IPs used in KH are not shonen and are not known for being purely about fighting. That's not why the fans ike those IPs. But you know Final Fantasy? Known for being about fighting? You fight Cloud and Squall all them. Why? That's what people wanna see when FF crosses over. Because it's a fighting IP. Same with Bleach.

First off, Sephiroth vs sora?

Secret boss, and known for being very difficult. Plus Sora is shown to go up against Cloud and win (tho not going serious, obviously), so it makes it somewhat believable. Sephiroth does not show feats on Bleach levels that I have heard.

Second off, that why I'm suggesting making the story line before ichigo heads off to the soul society. For the first chapter (in kh2, each world had 2 chapters except TWTNW and disney castle.) and idk, a second battle with byakuya again.

While that would be the best one to incorporate into KH (for power level purposes) its not known for being the best arc nor the most representative of what Bleach is about. It'd be like making a Final Fantasy X world only focused on the Zanarkand intro.

Bleach fans + Kh fans= more fans.

Except a crossover of this kind will not simply take the fans of both and add them together. More likely it'd be a minority of Bleach fans added to a minority of KH fans (the hardcore ones that'll buy anything). It'd be even less than original KH.

More fans= more money

Except it wouldn't have more fans.

More money=

This is true...to Square Enix, Disney, and Bleach. But I bet you this wouldn't sell worth a 野菜.

Square Enix would need disney's approval. Which I doubt they'd even want.

They get Disney approval all the time. The relationship is strong. Disney would most likely not want anything to do with Bleach. I doubt Square Enix would either.

I'd rather die then see spiderman have a conversation with sora.

I'd rather die four times and never play another KH game or watch anymore Bleach than see Ichigo have a conversation with Sora.

With the crossover? the the the the yes. With you? Nah, you're not a troll. At all.