Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

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Nightshade
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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Nightshade » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:04 pm

Thought about whether or not it's prudent to use incense to avoid every encounter. I'm not convinced that it is, unless you are very careful with where you use them.

Just based on playing through the game, in order to avoid every battle, I estimate that you'd need about 70 incense. We'll say you have a good route and can get through the game with 50.

50 incense = 10,000 coins = 5 minutes of coin harvesting.
It also takes 30 seconds to get the incense.
However, each incense costs about 5.5 seconds to use (5 to use it, and about 0.5 to get rid of the 'incense has lost its effectiveness' box). This is another ~4:30 lost.

In return, you save ~8:00 minutes in random battles (I counted 32 battles after Sol in my run, at a cost of 15-16 seconds each). You also save 1:45 or so from not getting the Chicken King.

Where you may save a little time is not swapping accessories around between field travel and boss fights. However, I'm just not seeing the potential for a big time save.

It does seem like maybe using incense just in the Absolute Fortress and in the Bio-Castle may be a more effective strategy, since those two areas seem to have a higher prevalence of encounters than the rest of the game. Conkram also seems to have a higher random encounter rate.

But that's just my cryptic musings on the matter.

-- Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:13 pm --

Shop Route

Rim Elm:

Sell: 2x Healing Leaf
Buy: Survival Knife, Warrior Boots (points = 30)

Drake Castle:
Sell: Survival Knife, Shield Elixir, Scarlet Jewel, Wisdom Water (3,090 G)
Buy: Defender Chain x3, Electric Shoes (cost = 4160, points = 208, total = 238)

Biron Monastery (after Mist)
Sell: Azure Jewel, Phoenix x1, Life Water, Power Elixir, Shield Elixir, Magic Amulet, Cure Amulet, Earth Jewel, Survival Club (total = 8,880 G)
Buy: Healing Leaf x59 Deep Sea Jewel x2 (cost = 9,900 points = 495, total = 733)
Sell: Healing Leaf x55 (get 2,750 G)
Buy: Savior Clothes (points = 90, total = 823)
Sell: Hunter Clothes (get 550 G)
Buy: Power Shoes (points = 65, total = 888)

Ancient Wind Cave:
Sell: Wisdom Water (1,000G),
Buy: Green Clip, Tempest Shoes (2900 G, points = 145) (should have ~850G left)

Ancient Water Cave:
Sell: Deep Sea Jewel x3, Mettle Ring
Buy: Earth Jewel x2, Golden Compass (7,000 G, points = 350, total = 495) (~2850G)

Vidna: Sell: 99 Phoenix, Guardian Ring, Spirit Jewel (+98,200 G)
Buy: Expert Seal, Fighter Claw, Fighting Plate, Master Boots, Red Club, Warrior Armor (20,400 G, points = 1,020, total = 1,515)
Should have ~65,000 G left
Buy: Mettle Ring x2, Forest Amulet x2, Door of Light x11, Door of Wind x25, Magic Leaf x8, Healing Flower x35, Healing Bloom x21
(points = 3,490, total = 5005)

Get ~3,000 G from Berserker & Orb fights

Underground Octam
Sell: War Soul, Mettle Ring x2, Forest Amulet x3, Guardian Ring (from Jeremi), Phoenix x75 (129,000 G, total = 132K))
Buy: Fighter Band, Fighter Boots, Force Blade, Hard Beat, Ironman Armor, Jeweled Clip, Olive Shoes, Scarlet Robe
(31,400 G, points = 1520, G remaining ~ 100,000)
Buy: Ebony Jewel x25 (G remaining = 0, points = 5000, total = 6520)
Sell: Ebony Jewel x25 (G remaining = 50000)
Buy: Ebony Jewel x12 (G remaining = 2,000, points = 2400, total = 8920)
Sell: Ebony Jewel x9 (G remaining = 20,000) & all armor not needed
Buy: Luminous Jewel x2, Burning Jewel x2 (G remaining = 10,000 [probably more], points = 800, total = 9520)
* Since Gaza 1 fought w/ Point Card, only need 1 Jewel for Gala

You shouldn't need to buy or sell anything else until Sol

Starting: 10,000G
Get 22,300 from Songi 2, Kemaro, Saryu, Dohati
Get 13,000 from tree + dance competition = 45,000 G

Sell: 13x Vitality Ring + 91x Soru Bread = 598,000 G (total = 643,000 G)

Buy: Stone Amulet x10, Healing Flower x4 (151,600 G, remaining = 491,400, points = 7580)
Buy: Beast Buster, Bloody Claw, Hero Boots, Master Armor, Royal Crown, Survival Axe, Tempest Robe
(88,500 G, 403,000 G remaining, 4425 points, 12,005 total)

Gaza gives 4500 (407,500 G)
Buy: Stone Amulet x20 (300,000 G, 15,000 points, 107,500 G remaining)

Gaza 2 gives 7500 (115,000 G) (5,001 points remaining)

Sol Tower - Second Floor Armory
Sell: Stone Amulet x30, Wonder Amulet, Golden Book (270,000G, total G = 385,000)
Buy: Battle Axe, Expert Armor, Hero Seal, Holy Claw, Steel Boots, War God Plate (114,100, 5705 points, 10,706 total)
Total G remaining = 270,900

Usha: Sell: All Armor, Magic Grail (~60,000, total = 330,900)
Buy: Healing Berry x91 (273,000, G remaining = 97,900, points = 13,650, total = 24,356)
Sell: Healing Berry x70 (105,000 G, remaining = 202,900)
Buy: Magic Fruit x23 (115,000 G, remaining = 87,900, points = points = 5750, total = 30106)

Use 29,997 on Delilases (remaining = 109)

Delilases + Koru give 37,500 G (remaining = 152,500 G)

Zora + Puera give 9,750 (remaining = 162,250 G)

Soren Camp (last shop!)
Sell: E. G. Icon, Warrior Icon, War Soul, Mettle Gem, Rainbow Jewel, Wonder Amulet (150,000 G, remaining = 312,250 G)
Buy: War God Band, War God Boots, Triumph Boots, Pronged Crown, Heavy Strike, Battle Robe
(168,000, remaining = 144,250, 8400 points, 8506 total)
Sell: All bad armor & weapons (to ~160,000?)
Buy: 32 Magic Fruit (160,000G, 8000 points, 16506 total)
Sell: 30 Magic Fruit (gain 75,000G)
Buy: 31 Healing Fruit (remaining = 600 G, 3720 points, 20,006 total)

I think that's a workable shop route for the game.
Last edited by Nightshade on Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do not question yourself with the why or the how. I simply am, and that is all you need to know.

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Jackimus
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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Jackimus » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:03 pm

That is a solid looking shop route for sure. i am confused about all the magic fruit buying at soren though, wouldnt heal fruits be more prudent at the end, they're kind of, necessary for most remaining boss battles? Shouldn't need more than 6 magic fruits for the rest of the game (depending on how much juggernaut you plan on using of course). you probably could cut 2-3 vit rings if you go pts/juggs on gaza 2, and have the time end up being pretty much a wash, also.

As far as incense goes, those estimates are _high_. 31 is the number (although i get a couple extra for safety) which is basically 3 bonus games and 15 seconds of trading. you still want to keep the evil talisman on at all times as there are a couple spots where incense will run out a hair before you're clear of a random encountery zone. when you factor in that even an immediate escape requires the screen to explode, game to load, close up on monsters, select run, characters run away, and game loads area... even cutting as few as 8 encounters probably ends up making this viable. There are extra menu trips needed to refresh incense, but with good planning you can use those moments to do your OSB healing, accessory swapping etc.

Tried running the route i proposed recently yesterday and had my run die on the fire path when i failed to runaway 6 times in a row >_<. My (livesplit) timer was 3:29 when i had the game over, and i had garbage slots (45 mins for 72500 coins gross >_<) so the route does look promising, compared to existing splits from your prior runs. I'll try again in a few days when i have 9 hours to spare and if the results are good i'll post the route exactly.

Oh, and little slot "trick" whether or not you were aware IDK, post bonus game just mash (circle). unless the right wheel is rolling you'll have a fist set on that reel everytime.

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Nightshade
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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Nightshade » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:03 am

Yeah, those should be heal fruits. For some reason, I thought I had heal fruits earlier and not magic fruits. That will need to change accordingly.

I think the best thing to do is:

Sell: 30x Magic Fruit (you had 23 from earlier at Usha, plus the 5 from the second quiz)
Buy: 31x Healing Fruit (for 74,400)

I do use 9999 points + Juggernaut on Gaza 2. Note that even though I bought 15000 points, I have 5,001 points left after Gaza 2 to feed into the 30,000 needed for the Delilases. This means that unfortunately, I can't save more time this way.

The other thing is that, because of how I practice and am familiar with running the slots, I do the reels from left-to-right. I think it would throw off my experience to try to do them out of order. But will test out to see if that can be put to use somehow.
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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Nightshade » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:52 pm

So, some corrections need to be made based on my (failed) run yesterday which died when the game softlocked on Zora for six minutes and I just gave up.

Big correction: You need to save the Spirit Jewel from the Vidna Slots in order to use Juggernaut on Gaza 2. This can be rectified by getting 20 extra phoenixes (+1000 coins)

You need only 75 Power Elixirs (9 for Songi 2, Saryu, Dohati; 8 for Koru; 10 for Jette, Cort 1, Songi 3, JuggerCort) This saves 800 coins.

You can, however, sell the Spirit Jewel at the Usha shopping trip. As a result, you can shave 1 Vitality Ring roughly.

In addition, another time save:

Use Juggernaut + 9999 points on Gaza 1. By using all four Magic Waters up to this point on Gala, he should have enough MP (192) to cast it. This saves only 20,000 G, which is whatever. More importantly, it saves a trip to the item shop between Gaza 1 and Gaza 2, which costs a not insignificant amount of time since you can just elevator down to the 4th floor. Getting the Sage's Chest on the third floor early only takes about 12 seconds.

The long and the short of it is that you can save about 1500 coins, lowering the number needed to about 43,500.

Buy:
75 Power Elixir, 7 Shield Elixir, 99+99 Phoenix, 7 Fury Boost, War Soul, Spirit Jewel, Guardian Ring (19,670)

10 Vitality Ring, 1 Magic Ring, 12 Incense, 99 Soru Bread, 1 Gold Card (22,850)

Total: 42,520 coins.

One last change is that Magic Leaves aren't purchasable in Vidna without the Platinum Card. I failed to see that earlier. Will have to adjust.
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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by GoldenPower89 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:40 pm

Too much math required for this. That is all.
Image

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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Nightshade » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:18 pm

GoldenPower89 wrote:Too much math required for this. That is all.
Funny you say that.

In truth, a speedrun is much like a constrained optimization problem. The objective is to beat the game. The constraints are the rules of the game, including any glitches or 'tricks' which may be possible.

Everything after that is a set of figuring out the right series of button presses to get to the end of the game as soon as possible. In some games, such as Ocarina of Time or Super Mario Bros., the optimal series is already known to a large extent, and the goal is to actually execute it. In a game like this, it's a matter of probabilistically finding the right path.
Do not question yourself with the why or the how. I simply am, and that is all you need to know.

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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Jackimus » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:33 pm

Tonight i hit the WR on Zeto% at 1:52:23!!!!

The run is still improvable, i did not get an instakill in the viguro fight. Also, the end was verrrrry tense, as an unexpected visitor caused me to forget to eat at biron and heal, so i had more limited resources running through the mist generator. right before songi i escaped a battle with vahn and noa dead, and gala at 7 hp. You can't make this stuff up :lol: !! Also had a few menuing mistakes here and there due to nerves (the pace of the whole run was fairly bonkers) and could have probably attacked with noa on the penultimate turn of the zeto fight and survived the tidal wave, then finished with the tempest break, but knowing i had the record in the bag otherwise, elected to play it safe.

Full game any% is next on the hit list, naturally, hope to be able to do a run a week going forward!

Video: https://www.twitch.tv/jackimuswedge/v/105808496

Also, this is probably something I should have asked earlier. I am running the game on a PSOne, and at times it seems like load times are kind of messing with me... what IS the optimal console/emulator/misc setup for running the game re: load times, and lag for battle animations? (example: boss specials and hyper arts lag a lot on the fat ps2 it seems, which is why I have been using my PSOne)

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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Nightshade » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:18 am

I think Slim (70k or 90k model) PS2's are the fastest because they have minimal lag and faster screen transitions than does the PS1.

However, your video is not showing up. I can't see it.

What I can say is that you should definitely switch over.

Just looking at the older video; you had an 18:15 Rim Elm and didn't get Mei's Pendant.

I can fairly routinely get the pendant and get out of Rim Elm by 17:50.
Do not question yourself with the why or the how. I simply am, and that is all you need to know.

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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Jackimus » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:01 am

Rim Elm exit time varies a lot for me cuz I won't auto-reset if I don't get Gimard immediately. I do reset if I dont get it within the 3 optional event battles. Im considering not even bothering to have a split until rikuroa since the battles that i end up fighting to get vahn lv3 can be spread out between two sections from one run to the next. I did "gold split" rim elm on the run i linked (video should be working now incidentally, forgot about twitch taking time to process an upload when i linked prematurely- my bad) which is ideal, since you're making forward progress while battling monsters to get vahn lv3. optimally that would be done with 1 gimard fight in rim elm, 2 single slime encounters on the way to drake (with one splitting), a double skeleton pre-heal and a skeleton/ghost combo post heal- but of course the game will never give you such a optimal combination of encounters.

I'm not sure how readily available a slim ps2 is for me- cant really justify buying a console to play only one game- but i'll ask around and see if anyone i know is willing to lend me one. thanks for the tip on that, incidentally

EDIT: Oh wow, the difference between consoles is absurd. just even comparing my usual first few minutes to your existing runs on SR.com, i'm on average 20 seconds behind at the juggernaut FMV less than 7 minutes in- despite the completely identical route to that point. That time is going to add up a loooooot over the whole game >_< slim ps2 a must it seems

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Re: Legend of Legaia Speedrunning.

Post by Nightshade » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:26 pm

I play on a fat 39k model PS2 (a.k.a. dinosaur tech). The slim PS2's are even faster since they have considerably less lag / framerate drops. I am considering getting myself a late-model PS2 for the holidays in order to cut down time further.

I suspect, but have not tested, that you may be able to save time by using battle camera at 'normal' or 'far' instead of close in order to cut down on lag that way.

Depending on how I am feeling, I may do an any% run on Friday. Did one this past Saturday, but the game softlocked for close to seven minutes on Zora and I was already 12 minutes behind, so eh, whatever. I do not think that using points is quite as good as originally calculated, because of the time spent in shopping. I am trying to adjust the route slightly to use Juggernaut on Gaza 1, so I don't have to make an extra trip to the item shop between Gaza 1 and Gaza 2; this will probably save a minute when factoring in the points which need not be obtained as a result.
Do not question yourself with the why or the how. I simply am, and that is all you need to know.

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